In this episode, Susan Tatum speaks with Molly Brown, a former aerospace engineer turned life coach, about the hidden mindset barriers that often hold independent consultants back. Molly shares how her engineering background helped her uncover the root causes of these issues and explains why aligning internal beliefs with external actions is key to overcoming challenges like fear of rejection and self-doubt.
Notes from the Show
Mindset Misalignments: Many consultants operate with a model of self-worth tied to external validation, which can hinder their ability to take bold actions. Adjusting this internal model can eliminate fear and unlock greater potential.
The Problem with External Validation: Relying on client responses or business results to validate personal worth creates stress and inconsistent outcomes. Self-worth must be independent of external factors.
Environment Shapes Behavior: Drawing from the Cynefin framework, Molly explains how making subtle changes in the environment can guide behavior more effectively than rigid rules or systems.
Results Mirror Beliefs: Negative outcomes often reflect subconscious beliefs. Asking, “How is it true that I created this?” can reveal and challenge limiting assumptions.
The Role of Compassionate Coaching: Transforming mindset requires honest self-reflection in a judgment-free space, facilitated by a supportive coach who can identify unhelpful thought patterns.
What’s Inside:
Mindset ideas grounded in science and real-world application.
What are mindset misunderstandings?
How self-limiting beliefs create reinforced patterns.
Tips for pushing your own mind to create expansive and aligned beliefs.
Mentioned in this Episode:
Transcribed by AI Susan Tatum 0:37
Hi everyone. Welcome back to stop the noise. And, you know, I just finished up a listening tour where I spoke with 100 independent consultants who had been in the corporate world as high level executives and experts, and they're doing independent consulting now. And one of the main things that came out, if not the main point that came out of the challenges, particularly with client acquisition, was mindset barriers. So they all fell into that category of mindset barriers. So I reached out to our guest today, Molly Brown, who is a life coach and founder of mindset engineering, and she agreed to come talk with us about these mindset issues and her view on them. So welcome, Molly.
Molly Brown 1:25
Hi. Thanks for having me.
Susan Tatum 1:26
It's really good to have you here. And I, you know, I think you just have this fascinating background because you, you started in engineering and physics, I think is, is an interest of yours, and military intelligence, and in those fields are obviously very data driven, and now you are a life coach and focusing in the area of mindset. So how did you get there?
Molly Brown 1:50
Yeah, I know from the outside it looks like a big turn, and from my perspective, I am still pulling on the same thread, unraveling a problem I started unraveling when I was a corporate engineer in an aerospace company doing design work and development work, and we had this root cause corrective action protocol of when something something breaks, we look into why did it break, and then we correct it and redesign it and, you know, send it out into the field. And so after just several years of this process over and over and over again, I realized we don't have very many technical problems. Or once we correctly diagnose the technical problem, the solution is very easy in a company full of engineers and technical people to redesign it. The difficult thing is diagnosing the correct technical problem, and for that, we had this hypothesis, this theory, that we could use data and have data driven decision making, that we would have more information from the outside world, and that would inform our decisions differently, and we would design things differently. So that made sense to me as a hypothesis. And so we went out and got a bunch of that data that burned up this big project, to go get the data that is available, put it in a place where everybody can access it, and then started using it with the engineers and and the decision making process, and what I saw happen over and over again. Well, first, as the person that the hardware, the broken hardware, comes off the airplane and sits on my desk, and I see it, and I see it broken. So I'm very connected to the reality of there is broken hardware. It's not abstract. You know, in the position I had, it wasn't abstract. And the way it gets broken is we have a model, we designed it for a model, and then it lives in the real world. And so there's a difference between the model in the real world, and the real world wins every time. And so anything that was designed for the model, and there's a difference in the real world is going to be damaged. And that's a record that's an indicator of the differences between the model and the real world. So since I'm seeing all these broken parts, I'm very aware that there are things in the model that are not true in the real world, or vice versa, there's discrepancies between the model and the real world. So as I'm looking through data and pulling data in, I'm looking for where is the model wrong? Where can we update the model to the real world? And as I went through, I had just a cool opportunity in the company to use this data platform with different people and kind of talk about it and show people how to how to use it, and watch these different teams use the data. And what I saw happen over and over and over again is technical people, educated people, technical people, experienced leaders and people with incentives, financial incentives, to solve a problem, use the data to argue for anything they expected to find in the data and argue against anything they didn't expect to find complete. You know, I think there's a term confirmation bias, which I think is small for what's actually going on on, but that's, you know, a flavor of what's happening is that anything that doesn't confirm what we already expected. So basically, anything that says the reality is different from the model I watched technical, educated, experienced people double down and like, hold on to the model and then argue against why reality must be wrong, and any data indicating reality is different, the data must be wrong. And all these, you know, data quality concerns and issues. And so that became, after watching that over and over and over again, and after getting over my own frustration of watching that over and over and over again. I realized like that is, this is now the problem under the problem like, as I'm pulling on a root cause investigation I'm like, so now it, it actually doesn't have anything to do with anything technical. It's now this problem of, why are we so emotionally committed to defending a model that is clearly not entirely accurate? Because there's broken hardware coming back. And so that changed from being an engineering problem, a software problem, into being a human problem, a brain a brain problem. Well, at first I thought it was a brain problem, and now, years later, I'm like, it's just a human problem. So that's where I make this, you know, start to start to make this shift and say, this is about this is that original hypothesis we had about making data driven decisions? I now think is a total myth. There are no data driven decisions at all. We simply don't have the hardware of a brain. That's not how it works. We don't objectively take in an entire field of data and then make open ended decisions with it. We are always connecting dots. And if we're of where we are, where we think we are, and where we're going, and then the more honest we're able to be with ourselves about where we really are and where we're wanting to go, we're just connecting those two points, and the problems that we're having is those 2 points 1 or both of those points are subconscious. We don't know ourselves well enough, and we aren't able to be safe and honest with ourselves internally or in companies, in our teams, you know, whatever level that this is showing up on in order, we're our brain that just connects two dots. We're unaware of what those two dots are that's being connected, and then we try to micromanage the connecting of it, because you can see that in external actions and things like that. And so we're just not at all being effective at solving solving problems. And so that's where I started to pivot and to solve that problem. And there's some, you know, there's tons of literature on it, there's tons of of information. I think all the information we need to know is already known. I don't need to do research or run studies or or even write my own book. It's all known. And that's where it turns into coaching, because the reading it in a book, having it intellectually, that's it doesn't do it. It's like an embodiment experience as a difference between intellectually knowing something and actually living it out. And so that's where the that's where it turns into coaching. And I was, I'm really in my perspective. I'm still solving the same problem of broken hardware on my desk. I just dug this deep to get there,
Susan Tatum 8:16
so just to make sure that I following you correctly. Is is it that things that we perceive are happening to us, or our ability to do something is not what we have in our mind, as the model does not match reality. Does that yes,
Molly Brown 8:33
but and then for so, you know, for instance, like some of these limiting beliefs, like you talk about talking to entrepreneurs and then having, like, mindset blocks, so we have a model of our ourselves that is less than we really are, and when we don't know we're bigger, like, it's like being afraid to fall off the edge of the earth. If you think you have a model of the earth that's flat, you're going to be terrified to fall off the edge and go towards the horizon when you change your model and you know the world is round. Now you're not afraid to go far out in the distance anymore. So we have whether an entrepreneur or not, but you have some model of you that thinks the horizon is actually a waterfall, a cliff into an abyss. It doesn't know that you're bigger than that. You don't have the physical senses to perceive it in the moment. But your model is is too small. Your model is scary, and it doesn't allow you to take the actions, to go as far and push yourself and do what you really want to do. And so it's not a model of it's not a matter of having to change the earth, change the world. It's a matter of opening up our model to understand the a larger truth of it, so that we can then take action, and the fear goes away. It's it's also not about overcoming fear. You change the model, then there's no place in it. There's no reason to be afraid.
Susan Tatum 9:52
So is there an example of, can you an example of how that happens in the, say, the mind of a consultant. I mean, like, like, what would be like, is it like we said, it's not fear so much, but let's say a fear of reaching out to prospects, or, you know, a fear that somebody is going to take issue with what I say, or they're going to tell me I'm wrong, or they're going to be smarter than me, or they're not going to want to talk to me. Or, yeah,
Molly Brown 10:19
it would be to have the misunderstanding in your model, that your value, you know, broad strokes, that your value is dependent on other people's opinion about you. If you that, if other people like my business idea, it's a good idea that if somebody says yes to my sale, that I'm going to be okay. My business is going to do okay. And it's to to have the misunderstanding that that that the value of me, my business, my idea is, well, conditional. And it's not to say that I understand consultants, anybody in businesses is going to make sales, is going to that the goal is to make the sales. And so it's not to say, don't try to be making sales, but if you're, if you're trying to make the sales, reach out to contacts. Have people follow up and talk with you, believing that that will make you valuable. That's those are the two, the two points that you're trying to connect that that go under you know that you might not be aware of, and then the brain is just trying to connect them. One of those points is, I'm not valuable right now. And that's, that's true if we're trying to do anything that that makes us more valuable, we're not enough right now. And that is, that is true for you in the actions and world that you will create, even if you're not consciously aware of it, if you're trying to take actions to make enoughness that exists under your conscious level, and then to go out and reach out to people, talk to people, trying to make sales, trying to build a business, try to hire somebody, whatever it is, from a place of, I'm not valuable. I'm not enough, right now. You're creating more of what you have. You will find more experiences. You will have conversations. You will have fears that that continue to co sign that originating belief, to take all this seemingly on the outside the same actions, making the phone calls, making the sales, reaching out to people, being the face of of your business, being or doing your work as your consultant, which on, you know, on a to do list or something a business plan. On the outside, they're all the same actions. But from to do it from a place of believing I'm inherently valuable. And it has nothing to do with my paycheck. It has nothing to do with how many people say yes. Has nothing to do with if I can even pay my mortgage this month. It actually has nothing. My value as a human being has nothing to do with that. And then you're going out, you're building a business, and you're so all the things that that you're doing are coming back to that subconscious belief of, I'm building a business instead of, I'm trying to become valuable, and you have to seemingly the same actions are getting different responses from people and just building different results cumulatively over time.
Susan Tatum 13:09
So one of the things that we talked about, you and I, one of our other conversations, was these folks that came out of the corporate world or industry or big consulting firms or whatever, came from a very structured environment when they knew exactly what's expected of us them. They knew how to play the game, and they knew how to win, and they knew when they had resources and team, the teams and all that sort of stuff. And then you get out into the independent consulting area, and most of that is gone, you don't have that structure. So what happens then?
Molly Brown 13:44
So then, the way I see it is that this, this misunderstanding of I'm inherently valuable, or the misunderstanding that I'm not inherently valuable, that it's my I'm an executive, makes me valuable. I have a college degree. It makes me valuable. I have lots of degrees. It makes me valuable. I have this much experience it makes me valuable. I work for this company. It makes me valuable. I can pay my all these bills. It makes me valuable. All of those are misunderstandings, but you're a symptomatic of having those misunderstandings when you work in a company that continues to pay you all that money and give you this title of executive, and you go to work and they say you are so valuable here, and here's all these awards and things to prove it, and like, I see that college degree on your resume, and that's what's going to earn you a position here. So you have all you have the same misunderstandings, but they're they don't flare up. They're not symptomatic when you're in a company and all these outside places are telling you is right, you're not inherently valuable, but you are valuable because of all these other reasons, and then should you make the transition to working for yourself? And you don't have those voices around you. You don't have that infrastructure around you to for you to feed your misunderstanding, for you, for you to use as a crutch with your misunderstanding. You actually have to stand on your own two feet. Right, which is to feel your inherent value and that that's the work, that that's the transition from corporate into entrepreneurship, and then learning the sales skills and things can all be the playground or the sandbox, where that work gets done and where it look, where it learns, but to understand that you're you're correcting that misunderstanding. You're not learning sales. If you do that, you're very you're infinitely scalable. If you think you're learning scale sales, now you have to go learn marketing, and then you have to go learn this and you have to go get this certificate, and it's all very never ending in because you're, you're trying to feed a misunderstanding.
Susan Tatum 15:39
Is it fair to say that we're we're continuing to look for external validation. So we say, if I can make a sale, if they buy my stuff, if they want me to come in and help them solve a problem, then I must. I must be valuable. So okay, so what's wrong with that, other than the fact that we get depressed or stressed out.
Molly Brown 15:57
So what we're actually doing in that, what we want the external validation is we're holding other people hostage to do it for us, and so all the people in our lives, the relationship is muddied by having this need for them to validate, for them to prove worthiness. And if, instead of it just being about I like to work here. I want to work here. I want to build this business with you. I see the vision. It's everything or a partner relationship. Everything gets muddied because we're actually relying on anybody outside to do our own work of prove our worthiness and value. And then the things that you mentioned pop up, like anxiety and depression, all of these, all of these things.
Susan Tatum 16:44
So you gave me when we were we were talking before you gave me an example of a a children's birthday party. And I don't even remember exactly what you were trying to explain to me, but it resonated with me.
Molly Brown 16:59
So I part of another of the things that I noticed as I was on this pulling this thread and root cause and on this hypothesis of data driven decisions when I was back in corporate, is seeing that we're addicted to measurement as a business culture, well, probably extending beyond business, but we're addicted to Measurement and the things that we really want are immeasurable. So we pick an adjacent thing and call it that, you know, something that's adjacent or correlated, that's measurable. We make that our KPI, and then we obsess about it. And so that happened, and realize that we're not actually measuring the thing that we want because we can't and that there's the difference again, between the model, the KPI, the thing we can measure, and the actual real world, the thing that we want to be maximizing. We're only maximizing the measurement, and then we're blind and get confused about why is the actual thing not changing when we're doing all of these things to change the measured value, and it's because we abandoned actually being present with what we want for being present with something we can measure instead, so that our business system, that that needs to have charts, that needs to have things reported out, that needs to do all of these things, can have the measurement in it and to I had trouble describing that until I found the work of David Snowden, who has a framework called Cynefin, C, y, N, E, F, I n, that talks about the differences between ordered systems and complex systems. So the example he gives of a you know, an ordered system is you would have cause effect, cause effect, cause effect, and you could study and learn all the causes and effects, and then you could control all the causes and get all predictable effects, you know, to however complicated it might be, but it's, there's that linear relationship between the two, and then there's complex systems that have things that CO emerge and relate. And it's not, it's not cause and effect. It's multi system or variables happening together, and that the system level thinking doesn't work there. And the example he uses to talk about that is a children's birthday party that if you walked into a children's birthday party and said, All right, we're not his party. This is the these are our KPIs. We're gonna be measuring these things. And I want all of you to be reporting out these things. And these are, this is the goal, the, you know, the problem statement of the party, the goal of the project party. And this is all of the milestones we're going to hit throughout the party. And all these are the teams we're going to work on, you know, like it's honestly going to come
Susan Tatum 19:35
and then the clown is going to come in and then the clown is going to leave, and you're going to take a nap. And then, yeah, so,
Molly Brown 19:39
right, right? And it's all obviously nonsensical when we think about it with the children's party, and then we might think, Well, it's because it's children and they just can't follow instructions, or whatever it is. But it's actually a different system, a different kind of system that doesn't follow those rules. And there's, there's plenty of those kinds of systems inside our businesses, inside our companies, inside our lives that aren't they just don't follow. They're not measurable, linear processes. And so if we're trying to force things into something that can be measured that way, then we are just we will always be fail at, lost and confused by the systems that don't operate that way. But there, if we're willing to recognize, oh, there's just different kinds of systems. And this isn't one where I can micromanage. This isn't one where, well, micromanage is a judgmental term. This is in one where I can just linearly give instructions the way that it works. In other instances that that we can set, we can set boundaries, and we can reassess and move boundary conditions, and then the complexity will happen inside of that. And we can take, I forget that his his terminology for it, but kind of sparking activities that will spark a kind of action from the team. And if we like that action that emerges based off of that, that spark, then we can continue to feed that spark and allow that kind of activity to go around, and we don't like the activity that comes up with it, then we dim that spark, we turn up another one, and we just we look for what provokes the kind of activity within the system that we want. And it's a different it's different kinds of systems behave in different kinds of ways, and there's ways of assessing them. I'm absolutely not the right smokes person to like clearly explain David Snowden work. But I would, you know, refer anyone to that and and I
Susan Tatum 21:31
helped me out here for a second Molly, because what, the way you had described it to me, was, if you want the children now it's time to be quiet, you turn the lights down, you dim it, you change the music you do there, there's things that what the way that I took it was, there's things in the environment that you can change that will help drive the behavior that you're looking for.
Molly Brown 21:53
And to find those things, you have to be thinking about the system really differently than what do I tell the kids to do that, you you just have to approach it and think about it really differently. And then you'll Yeah,
Susan Tatum 22:05
to take it back to you're talking about, to get clients, let's say. And if I need, I know that I need to talk with a certain number of prospects, or I think I know that I need to talk with a certain prospects to find an opportunity. And then I have to have enough opportunities to, you know, and on and on until I get the enough clients to reach my revenue goals. And you're not, I don't think you're saying, Don't do that. You still follow those paths.
Molly Brown 22:35
So part of the interesting places that this has led me, you know, being that it's turned into a human problem and into life coaching is realizing that we're, we're always, we're always acting with faith in something, and we may or may not be conscious of what we have faith in. And it's very It feels very safe, and it's very scalable. When the faith is in us, in ourselves, that's not inherent valuable, if the marketing kind of funnel that I heard, you know, that's a kind of a simple, simplified way is, if, you know, I message 100 people and then 10 respond, and then out of that 10, you know, 10% of that is one, and then you have one client out of that kind of funnel. And that's to trust, that's to have faith in a marketing rule, a marketing law, a law of large numbers, a Gaussian curve, like all of these other constructs that we were dishing out, our faith into these, these things that most people there's math behind the models and things like that, but most people don't understand it at all, and it's just blind faith that they're putting in something other than themselves, and then when it doesn't, when it doesn't work, or you want to scale up, well, when it doesn't work, then there's fear, like the rug is yanked out from under you, and you're like, if I can't have faith in this, how does it work? How do I create clients? I don't know, because you don't. You don't know how to be the you don't know how to be what creates clients for yourself? Your model doesn't say, I create clients for myself. Your model says the funnel, obeying the rules of the funnel creates the clients. And if it doesn't, then there's fear. And if it does, and you want to scale up, you're scaling up based off of following this law that ends up with people just having to work really hard and really long hours to scale up funneling down strike 10% to you know, if your rule that you're operating under is, I get 1% of all the work I do, 1% turns into clients, and you want to double the top of your funnel gets really big. And then people are living in that their their businesses are busy. They're they're they're hustling when it doesn't have to be that way if you were executing under a different model and to to really, you know, shake, shake people awake and sit with them as it it lands for them, because it can be a an awakening, kind of fearful process of we are. Just operating under faith of lots and lots of things where it's and then bringing to conscious awareness all of the things that we've just been trusting and having faith in that may or may not even be real, and sorting that out so that you can control
Susan Tatum 25:15
so when you're working with a client, so why? Why do clients come to you in first place, like, what are they feeling?
Molly Brown 25:22
often that's that they are. I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, and they've set up a business that hasn't solved the problems in their life that they were hoping working for themselves would solve. They end up having the same kind of quality of work life that wherever they left was, and so they just relocated it,
Susan Tatum 25:43
so they're not necessarily happier or less stressed out or whatever. Okay. And then, then, how do you how do you work with them?
Molly Brown 25:51
So we find what assumptions, what the assumptions they're making that caused their them to have that experience in in their job, in the first place, that they've brought into where they are as an entrepreneur and and these assumptions, these are, this is the what model, what model of themselves they're operating under. And if, if you're in corporate always wanting to be seen and heard and acknowledged, and not believing that you are seen and heard and acknowledged. And so you leave and go start your own business wanting to be seen and heard and acknowledged, you're going to find the same you're going to find the same problem at some point in your own business. And, um, I a lot of people that are let go from their job and have a resentment about that, or that really shook their confidence, then they show up in entrepreneurship or wanting to represent themselves with that shaken confidence of of being let go. And there's some re correcting misunderstandings and and correcting the model of themselves and what they what their actual value is and isn't coming from and being, you know, employed or let go to repair that within themselves so that they can create a different experience in their own entrepreneurship.
Susan Tatum 27:16
So and all of this is done, is it through conversation, or is it meditation? Is it? Are there tools that that can be used? Or what
Molly Brown 27:27
it happens through conversation and the cool thing about, you know, just having a second person is we believe our own beliefs. I think my beliefs are true, that I execute as if they're true, I build an entire world that is limited as if they were, as if they were true. And so it's not until I talk to somebody outside of me that can, that can push back and just ask me questions that cause me to reconsider, is this true or not? And it's kind of different than a business consultant that would just come in and say, This isn't true, right? This, is a new truth for you to go through coaching instead and have your own mind push on its own belief, and then facts check it or sanity check it itself and come up redesign a new expanded belief that includes where you are and where you want to go, a belief that encapsulates both of those so that you can get where you want to go and have train your mind to do that itself. Get a resource in there that can, that can provoke your mind to think for itself and to find the error in its own belief with assistance in finding the belief, instead of just going through a training program that just says, adopt these new beliefs instead, believe in this kind of funnel instead of that kind of funnel. And so it happens, all of my coaching is conversation. I I myself do meditate, and have discussed and helped other people start a meditative practice. And for me, that is kind of acts like a clutch mechanism I have. I'm a mechanical engineer. I'm a mechanical brain. So if you have gears that are all spinning together, and those are all my beliefs and my world that I've built in harmony with those beliefs, whether I'm enjoying the world or not, it's in harmony with my beliefs. And I want to plug in new beliefs. I want to create a new experiences in, you know, a new level of success. In my world, mechanically, you can't just shove a new gear in, like take one gear out and shove a new gear, and you have this clutch mechanism that pulls that pulls the gears apart and so that you can readjust them and put them size and new gear in and keep keep spinning. You don't just shove the gear. So in your thinking process, in your process of thinking and believing and creating your world around you, meditation acts as that space, that separation from spinning at this speed and thinking at the speed and being completely believing and falling for and integrate it into your world, and the model that you've used to build the world and to go into blankness, a blank sheet of paper so that in your mind, so that you can think new thoughts. You're not trying to, like, drag the old thoughts and form them into something else. You can just create space and then create new thoughts. And I have found a meditation practice for me, that that does that I use in that way.
Susan Tatum 30:25
That makes sense if you are, if some of the listeners want to, first of all tell us how they can get in touch with you if they want to know more about this very intriguing concept.
Molly Brown 30:36
Yeah, thank you. I'm on LinkedIn as Molly Brown and mindset engineer, and there is just, you know, one mindset engineer. There's lots of Molly Brown. So I'd suggest search term of mindset engineer, and then look at
Susan Tatum 30:50
m, o, l, l, y, right?
Molly Brown 30:52
Yes.
Susan Tatum 30:52
Okay, so what can, what can folks do if they if they want to take some of what you've said today and try to bring it into their lives.
Molly Brown 31:03
Yeah? Like, anti analysis, like, if we have analysis where you get results and then you think, why did this happen? What did I do? What was my part? What is what? Why is it this happened if say, results that we don't like, because when we get results that we do like, we tend to just move off, yeah, so if you're getting results that you don't like instead of going into the analysis. How did this happen? Why did this happen? What did this? What would cause this, and going into that kind of root cause analysis of it, instead know that those results are in harmony with your thinking and your beliefs about yourself, and so to use the results on the outside as things that are hidden from you in your own thinking or in your subconscious that are now being reflected back to you. And so ask questions like, How is it true that this is what I intended to create, especially entrepreneurs like say, you don't make the sale. How is it true that I intended to not make this sale, you will find things that you believe about your ability to do your job, your your ability to how much you believe what you're saying. You will find very valuable things that you can go work on about you instead of making it about the thing on the outside. Use the outside. Understand that it is like a law, a law of nature, just like gravity, and that what you're creating on the outside is in harmony with what you're thinking and believing on the inside. And so stop looking for the problems on what's on the outside and how to use outside things to change it, and realize it is, it is in line with how you're thinking and believing, and that's you got to be able to, you got to be You got to want it badly enough to be willing to be that honest with yourself. If it seems like I'm failing on the outside, if it seems like I'm sabotaging myself on the outside, how is it true that this is actually what I intended and what I wanted to do and work with somebody who can help you do that compassionately and not shamefully, a reason that we don't really get excited about doing that kind of thinking and work for ourselves, and we're so used to it being about blame and shame and fault, and then that's how we talk to ourselves in our head, And then we're just not at all going to be willing to do the kind of honest looking and assessing at our results and our actions that will get us the change we want work with somebody who can help you do that compassionately and help you then point out where you're not being compassionate to yourself. That's another thing we fall for, is I just can't be nice to myself here, and that's just not true, but we believe it's true, if that's how we've operated forever,
Susan Tatum 33:47
or Yeah, I'm just giving I'm making excuse, making excuses for myself, or something like that. Well, Molly, this is usual. Has been really interesting, you and very different. I'm just fascinated by the engineering, scientific background you have that led you so clearly, to doing what you're doing. And so thank you for for joining us. And I hope the listeners got as much out of it as I did. I'm sure they did.
Molly Brown 34:15
Yeah, thank you.