In this episode, Deb Versteeg joins Susan Tatum to discuss the power of collaboration in consulting and how perfectionism holds many experts back especially when it comes to sharing their insights publicly. They explore strategies for maintaining an expert position while staying open to client input, the importance of posting content even when it’s not perfect, and why getting ideas out there is more valuable than waiting for them to be flawless.
Notes from the Show
Collaboration builds trust. Engaging clients in the process from the start strengthens relationships and helps them feel more invested in the outcome.
Balance expertise with openness. Positioning yourself as an expert doesn’t mean having all the answers - it's about guiding clients while respecting their knowledge of their own business.
Perfectionism holds consultants back. Many independent consultants hesitate to share content because they’re used to corporate review cycles, but real impact comes from sharing ideas - even if they’re not polished.
Posting regularly on LinkedIn helps build credibility. Sharing insights, even informally, allows potential clients to understand your perspective and feel comfortable reaching out.
Lurkers are paying attention. Many prospects never engage publicly but are still absorbing content. Staying visible means being top of mind when they’re ready for help.
Quotes: "You can't be a perfectionist if you're going to cultivate a natural sense of curiosity." - Deb Versteeg
"Holding back your ideas means you're not giving other people the opportunity to hear them and see them." - Deb Versteeg
What’s Inside:
Embracing coaching as a leadership tool.
Cutting out perfectionism.
Getting started posting on LinkedIn.
Sharing your ideas - breaking past “is it client-ready?”
Mentioned in this Episode:
Transcribed by AI Susan Tatum 0:37
Hi everybody. Welcome back to stop the noise. Today my guest is Deb Versteeg, and she's the owner of Intention coaching and consulting, which is an organizational development consulting firm, and then also you work with emerging leaders. Deb works with emerging leaders and does leadership and development coaching with them, primarily with women, I think, welcome,
Deborah Versteeg 1:01
Hi. Great to be here, and thanks for that lovely introduction, and that spot on is primary focus is on emerging leaders from a coaching perspective, leadership development and some career development. Yeah,
Susan Tatum 1:13
there's certainly plenty of need for that isn't there?
Deborah Versteeg 1:17
Yes, and it's really positive to see so many organizations embracing taking a coaching approach to leadership and relationships and followership within organizations. So I think there's really good traction and momentum around that
Susan Tatum 1:31
seems to be riding a wave. I mean, there was, it wasn't that long ago, when if a company wanted to get you a coach, it was almost like your hands were being slapped. And now,
Deborah Versteeg 1:41
yes, I think that's fair to say that there is still some misconception around that, but that's definitely something from an education perspective, is just really position what coaching is, and that's especially if you're doing it from within an organizational standpoint, is being really clear in terms of what is it that we're working through from a coaching perspective and the expectations of support from that person's leader, and very rarely now that's not correct. It isn't often from that performance improvement or PIP kind of situation. It is around growth and development, career trajectory, career transition. It's a very healthy
Susan Tatum 2:19
Value achievers become even better.
Deborah Versteeg 2:22
Yeah
Susan Tatum 2:24
The topics that that we're going to cover today is one of which is overcoming perfectionism, and the other one is, really, is collaborating with clients. And we'll start with collaborating with clients if that's if that is okay with you. What does that look like for you in your work?
Deborah Versteeg 2:42
Yeah, when I if I'm having an initial discovery call with a would be client, let's say if I'm coming in from a blank slate. Haven't had any interaction with this person before, but they're reaching out because they see a particular expertise that resonates with them. That first conversation is more than just the what problem they're trying to solve. They're really looking for relationship and an interaction that says this person, I really resonate with what this person is saying, what they're asking me. There is a good fit in terms of style, and so you're starting to have that relational aspect that's starting to build by virtue of having the conversation around what does the scope of work or the contractual opportunity look like in partnering with the client, with the project?
Susan Tatum 3:31
Fair to say that it by collaborating with the client from the get go, or seeing in your mind, that's what you're doing. You're it's helping to build the relationship.
Deborah Versteeg 3:41
Yes, it starts to establish that relationship. You get insights as to the person's style, the way you would work going forward together, in terms of what does co creation actually look like? Because that's a little different in every one of those relationships. You may have some clients who the way you are partnering with them is you come to the table with a here's how I thought about the approach that we can take, and you're using that conversation to assess that out with the client. And then you're starting to have conversations around, what role would you like to play? Do you want to be forward facing? Do you want to be more behind the scenes? Depending on who you're wanting to position as the expert. Sometimes it absolutely necessarily needs to be the client who continues to be the forward facing expert who's delivering the project with the consultant supporting from the behind. And sometimes it's the other way around, depending on what the sensitivity of the topic is.
Susan Tatum 4:38
Isn't there also some kind of thing that if people are so, if your client is helping into in to sort of deciding what the solution is going to look like, then they're more bought into it as well, because they contributed to the development of the answer.
Deborah Versteeg 4:55
I think that's true. I think you do have to take a bit of a journey to get there, because. Oftentimes they're not sure what the solution is. They are more focused on the problem and having you come forward with the here's the journey we can take and the approach we would take to produce the outcome. And you're that in that way, you're testing that the outcome you're striving for is, in fact, the outcome that they have in mind. Because sometimes through that exploration, they go, Ooh, I didn't realize the root cause of this problem is different than what I thought it was. So you're testing that along the way, and that's part of the value of the co creation, and it also builds trust in that relationship.
Susan Tatum 5:36
I can tell this is something that's really you just light up when you talk about that. Deb, I can see that's something you really enjoy doing, and it makes a lot of sense. And I also I just, I can't help myself but throw in here that if consultants, and I assume coaches as well, approach the relationship from the get go as you're helping to solve a problem or find the root cause of a problem or take advantage of an opportunity, then you stay in consulting mode and expert mode, and you don't go into sales mode, which is something that we should avoid at all costs.
Deborah Versteeg 6:09
Yeah, I think coming across as a sales voice in a relationship, building, problem solving consulting context isn't always the way to go. There's not to say that there isn't a lot of value in those individuals who contribute to our society in a sales capacity, but in this context, yeah, I think not taking that sort of sales tone, it can be very off putting for someone who's maybe very stressed with trying to solve from an operational efficiency or whatever is happening within their organizational context at the time.
Susan Tatum 6:43
How do you balance presenting yourself as an expert and maintaining that position as an expert while you're staying open to collaboration?
Deborah Versteeg 6:52
Part of establishing and building that relationship is also recognizing the expertise the client brings to the table themselves and that co creative process, then is where it becomes very instrumental in the questions you're asking them. We're not talking about pandering here. We're talking about asking them questions because they have a pretty good understanding of the organizational context. They know who their stakeholders are. They know how to navigate some of the situations they're looking for expertise on what approaching, approach can you take, or should you take to produce a particular outcome or define the outcome together, and that's where there is that really good relationship build, or marriage, if you will, around the expertise that they bring to the table Is what you're leaning into in that context, while you're also by virtue of the questions you're asking them, demonstrating and building credibility around your own expertise, because they're starting to see and hear that an approach and the expertise is there to deliver on the project.
Susan Tatum 7:56
So that should, I think that should act as a good reminder to all of us that we should not feel like we know everything. We'd be going to a meeting and don't act like that. Yeah.
Deborah Versteeg 8:07
And then, what a great set, what a great connection to the not striving for perfection, because, like lifelong learning is a reality of our highly changing environment every single day. Is you have to be cultivating a natural sense of curiosity all the time, and you can't be a perfectionist if you're you're going to stymie your curiosity otherwise.
Susan Tatum 8:27
That yes, that makes sense, and that is something that I see holding a lot of consultants back, or something that that they do struggle with, especially it's almost the more I can't even think of the right words here, but it's those that have achieved the highest level of and it can be areas like consulting, science engineering, the PhDs are always in this category that they are hesitant when I when it comes to the part where you need to be putting out content on LinkedIn, can be a very difficult thing for folks to do. And you're nodding your head so you I'm thinking, you agree with me that it's a difficult thing to do. And I want to say that you yourself came out of some very large consulting firms, Deloitte being one of them. And so you're nodding that you know what I'm talking about. You've Have
Deborah Versteeg 9:21
Yes, I feel, I mean, I feel that all the time. I'm definitely, I'm definitely someone who goes through fits and spurts of being prolific or not prolific on on LinkedIn as an example. And I do think that attachment for perfection before you post absolutely actually takes away from your own humanity as a you're positioning a point of view, a perspective, and by association, often you're you're positioning your expertise, but if you're holding yourself back from sharing that perspective, which is what you're doing in the consulting environment all the time, and you're iterating through that perspective, right? Because you're learning the client context all the time. So there is a bit of irony there with the consulting environment. Is it is iterative. You can't be there. Not every deliverable starts out at perfect so you're holding yourself back if you're applying the same or if you're not being mindful of it when you're thinking about what it is that you're wanting to post on LinkedIn that's meaningful to you and meaningful to others.
Susan Tatum 10:24
One of the things that I think is that I think I see is when they when in the past, when they have published articles or reports or authored something they and they've gotten their ideas out there, it has been backed by a brand name, so it's being put out there as Deloitte, or whoever Not it's not Deb. This is Deb's idea. When now that you're doing your own consulting, anything you put out there is you, and that becomes a bit more personal, a lot more personal and then in your I mean, it's been a long time since I've been in the corporate world, but I do recall there being levels of review and approvals, and there's a whole lot of poking holes in things internally before something gets released.
Deborah Versteeg 11:16
Yeah, the expression that springs to mind from that environment is, it client ready? And I think sometimes there's a tendency to over vector on client ready deliverables, by nature or by virtue of the organizational construct, which is that leverage model of a newer practitioner developing a deliverable and taking the first pass with the guidance of someone who's more senior, and then it goes through those review cycles, and the number of versions that may ensue before the first draft, is presented to the client, is it's it's necessary, but it's also, I think it can also be excessive, because I think sometimes it risks cultivating the ideas of the originator of the deliverable, because they may have a perspective that goes, I have an idea here, and they may get held back a little bit because of the knowledge of the review cycle and maybe some adherence to a methodology, or whatever the case may be. And again, it's not to say that a methodology isn't valuable, but there needs to be flexibility and fluidity. It's not a word in that development because you're looking at it from the perspective of the unique needs of that client. A methodology is just it's a meaningful guidance document, but you've got to make sure it's unique to the needs of the client context.
Susan Tatum 12:40
Posting something on LinkedIn that may be half baked, and putting it out there and saying, This is what I've been seeing. This put me thinking, what do you guys think? Seems to be a difficult step for some people to take, but if you don't take that step, you're missing. You are missing the contribution of a lot of other people's opinions and ideas that could help your thinking. So how did you said you You're hot and cold about posting and not posting?
Deborah Versteeg 13:06
That's true.
Susan Tatum 13:07
How did you get yourself started posting the
Deborah Versteeg 13:10
I think the times where I was probably the most prolific was when I had the backing of whether it was a marketing campaign, a conference or whatever that I would be presenting at in the big firm environment. And those are all well and good, because it does help to credentialize you, right? But it's not necessarily a reflection of your own perspectives all the time. And so I think it could be very easy to be just become comfortable in whether you're sharing or you're overlaying with a little bit of your own perspective of something that's been released from a larger firm context, like an annual report. Yeah, I think there is that tendency to you could very easily become reliant on that, as opposed to going what is meaningful for me to be putting out there, whether it's to gain input, get a reaction, all of those things that come with a post when you're sharing insights,
Susan Tatum 14:05
and sometimes you get nothing when you put stuff out there, and you have to be prepared that, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. But what did you do to make yourself start posting as when you were on your own?
Deborah Versteeg 14:19
I'm still not great at it. I could stand to post a lot more than I'm posting. And I think I would say that I was probably falling into that perfectionism trap as well, going, ooh, what if I put something out there and people go, what is she talking about? The truth is that you may always have a situation where someone's gonna go that doesn't resonate with me, and that's okay, so what I typically try to do is keep a not a running list, but as things come up during the week. And I'm if I'm spending my time reading articles, we've shared articles with what with one another, because I think it might be something that resonates with you or with a colleague, and sometimes the exchange that comes with those gives me some ideas. That might be meaningful to share more broadly. So that's typically what I'll do, is, as I'm thinking about things that I'm taking in that is informational, that helps to support me in the work that I do, is also, is it an opportunity to put out there a perspective on what I've learned?
Susan Tatum 15:18
You could start posting your own ideas by comment or not commenting on but by talking about something that was published elsewhere, an article that ran in HBr, whatever, and how that led to your thinking a certain way or what you really like about
Deborah Versteeg 15:36
That's a good tip. That's yeah, and you don't always have to agree with what's been with what's been published, you could have your own evoking awareness of something that makes you go, I realize now that there is some input here that I don't agree with, fundamentally, because, and here's why. So it's it allows you then to also bring a different perspective forward. So the perspective doesn't have to be 100% I agree with this person, oh, I'm seeing, you know, so that I think that's the that's probably the piece of the comfort with the unknown, because you're not always going to get a reaction, or you're going to get a reaction that you don't anticipate. And anytime I've listened to people who are experts in personal brand, they just put it out there. They just put it out there, and they're like, they are okay, knowing that they're gonna have responses by people who are gonna vehemently disagree with whatever it is that they were posting. But they're sharing because this is something they feel strongly about, and that's their personal brand, and that's what makes them relatable to people, to some people, not all people, but to some people. And that's what draws people or clients to you.
Susan Tatum 16:46
Yes, it's what makes you different, too. And I, and I think if, if we, if you were to say, if you were to post something that nobody would disagree with, then you've, it's too milquetoast. You're, you were, like, way too generic on it. I don't think that we should be. I mean, I'm not the type of person that wants to draw out people telling me that I'm full of it. I don't mind if they do, but I also don't mind being very firm in what I believe, in what I know to be true through decades of experience.
Deborah Versteeg 17:18
Yes
Susan Tatum 17:19
I think visible clients. I think it would be hard. We'd be hard pressed to find a consultant that had been through the ranks, built a career, and I mean, really does know what the topic that they're consulting on, that didn't have opinions about things that were being done wrong,
Deborah Versteeg 17:31
or had learnings from things that didn't go as anticipated, which is sometimes the best way to make adjustments in the work that you're doing
Susan Tatum 17:39
That's very true. So one thing that we we talked about in talking around the topic of perfectionism, was that one of us called them lurkers. I can't remember whether it was you or me that brought it up, but there are. And I want to make a point that when you do start posting for the listeners, and as you are posting, you're going to find that the things that you think that we're going to get a great reaction get nothing, and the things that you think you're like, I don't know about this, we'll get wonderful reactions. And it's easy to lose enthusiasm for posting when nothing happens, but you're not wasting your time. You're out there and you are being seen. And we know from LinkedIns own data that a very high percentage of people that go to LinkedIn never post on anything, never like anything. They just read stuff.
Deborah Versteeg 18:30
Yeah, that's probably a great example of a lurker. And a lurker sounds like such a negative word. So if we maybe reposition a little bit that, if we look at it in a coaching context, for example, naturally think, I think many people may have some discomfort with the sharing about themselves and what challenges that they're experiencing in a coaching context. So they may spend some time watching and reading something that a coach is posting, and as there's something that's resonating with that person, they may not be responding to it, particularly if it's a topic that is sensitive in nature, in terms of something they're experiencing in their own professional environment. So they're going to be disinclined to comment about it publicly, but it may ultimately lead them to go this person knows what I'm experiencing. I believe this person can help me in coaching, because I've watched and I've read, and what they're seeing resonates with me, and I think I feel comfortable now reaching out to the person and saying, I'm interested in having a conversation with you about what what the coaching relationship could entail.
Susan Tatum 19:35
Do you think that it's a time they see over time that you're consistently posting, and they're getting a feel for what your opinions are and what your approach is through that. I guess that could happen sometimes, and then sometimes it's just a one off thing that really hits them. And you can't really plan for that.
Deborah Versteeg 19:53
You can't I think the universe is really about timing, and the timing could be that one post. That they say, this person gets me, it could be six months worth of posting, and then now I've got the courage, because the circumstances that I'm in make me go, this is the right time for me to reach out to this person. You just never know which is, which goes back to the point of having the confidence level to just put your perspectives out there, which I need to keep doing more of. It really does make a difference, because especially in the coaching context, people, people want to see what you can offer in that development, a career development lens for them, and it has to resonate with them, to feel like they want to reach out to you.
Susan Tatum 20:39
Yeah, and I think that it's one other thing that some of us have to get over is that some of the older ones, like me, were started working in a world where it wasn't digital. You didn't have you didn't have the opportunity to have a whole network that can contribute to your ideas. Now this is the way people communicate and the expectation isn't that you're going to post some huge white paper all the time. It's little snackable ideas that you're putting out there is just kind of the way it's done now,
Deborah Versteeg 21:14
yeah, and sometimes maybe those bite sized chunks actually, you would think that it would reduce the pressure where you're literally writing a paragraph or two of your insights based on experience that you've just had, or a workshop you've just sat in, or a client experience you've just had, whatever the situation gives you the insight or the idea to position
Susan Tatum 21:39
you would think. But there, there's some famous writer from a long time ago that that said something about I would have made it shorter, but I didn't have time. You can find your perfectionism can kick in when you're just trying to get one idea across and one paragraph and everything's got to be perfect.
Deborah Versteeg 21:55
I just watched this TED talk from someone by the name of Jon Youshaei. I may not pronounce that 100% correctly, but his his TED talk was amazing because he was doing YouTube videos. And he said, in his first year doing YouTube videos, I think he did nine in the first year, and it was because he was overthinking it. He would like re script it. He would re video it. He would never be happy with the recording, the scripting, whatever. And so He even used the examples of when he thought he finally had a final, he named the file final, and then he'd be like, final or final, or maybe final, or it depends final. And so his context was he realized that he was like, just procrastinating because he was aiming for perfectionism, which was getting in the way of him being able to publish these videos. And when you're aiming for that kind of perfectionism, you're handcuffing yourself. And so he ended up saying, once he was able to let go, because he gave some really interesting examples historically, of perfectionism versus moving forward with iteration, is some of his most watched videos were the ones that had poor video quality, or the audio wasn't 100% or he didn't feel super enamored with his with the script, and they were the most viewed videos that he ended up posting. And so he was able to let go of that over reliance on perfection, realizing that there was there was messaging that resonated with people. Went to all its imperfections, which was really cool,
Susan Tatum 23:25
and that reminds me of a similar story that of me with a client of mine. This goes back, I don't know, 10 years, maybe, that we're working on LinkedIn, and we were doing posts for him, and this was before marketing really got involved with the posts, and so he was just doing stuff that was really rough and getting great reactions to it, and then when the marketing people got involved in it, and I know me, and I'm not bashing marketing, but because this is just what happened, they were doing these slick beautiful things to be posted there on on this client of mines profile, and the engagement went way down, because it's not
Deborah Versteeg 24:01
what they were thinking was lost. Almost they weren't.
Susan Tatum 24:05
Yes, that's a good way to put I was gonna say it seemed like an ad, and that's not why they were there, but I like here the connection was lost. Yeah, that's a good one. You had another. We had another example when we were talking earlier, before we started recording, about was it Monet
Deborah Versteeg 24:20
Yeah, it was the same TED talk that I was just mentioning some of the examples that he gave historically. And I'll give you a more recent example as well. Is that you talked about Monet was such a perfectionist with his artwork that at one point he destroyed three years worth of his own artwork because he wasn't satisfied that he didn't feel that they were perfect enough for them to be consumed by the broad, broader audience. And what an inhibitor, when you think about that, right? And then his next example was Mozart, in his 35 years of life, did 600 musical compositions not all of those 600 are well known, but the whole. Point was that he was comfortable with iterating through these compositions, knowing that not all of them would be as popular as some of them would be, but he was allowing himself to go through the experience creatively, and his creative juices were continuing to flow because he wasn't inhibiting himself by desire for perfectionism. And so he also gave a recent example of James Corden, who decided to take a departure in format from most comedians, and he experimented with, I think it was 109 different formats, one of them that they now ended up becoming carpool karaoke, that many people grew to love, but many of them were failed formats as well, and but he turned he turned it into something fun, because that was the nature of the work that he does, and he probably was able to turn it into a good joke about a failed format. So it allowed this individual to think differently about striving for perfection before releasing his own YouTube videos. And that's where his his viewership took off.
Susan Tatum 26:03
Deb has been some great stuff, and I hope that, I hope that the listeners will take it to heart. If there's anybody out there, and I'm pretty sure there is that's struggling with letting the ideas go before they've been reviewed and stamped with approval. We're waiting to see your ideas, so come on and get them out there?
Deborah Versteeg 26:20
Yeah, I think holding back the idea means that you're not giving other other people the opportunity to hear it and see it.
Susan Tatum 26:27
That's true. Yeah, to go back to what consulting is all about, and what drives us into doing that is to to sharing our knowledge with other people. And here's the perfect platform, the perfect way to do it. So there you go.
Deborah Versteeg 26:40
That's very true.
Susan Tatum 26:41
Thank you so much for joining us.
Deborah Versteeg 26:43
It's been a pleasure
Susan Tatum 26:45
for the folks that want to follow up with you and learn more about what you're doing. What's the best way to get in touch with you?
Deborah Versteeg 26:50
You can find me on LinkedIn at Deborah Versteeg.
Susan Tatum 26:53
Wanna spell that? We will put it in the notes, but
Deborah Versteeg 26:55
we'll put it in the notes, but yeah, it's Deborah, D, E, B, O, R, A, h, and then my last name, Versteeg, V, E, R, S, T, E, E, G, and then you'll see intention coaching and consulting in the naming as well.
Susan Tatum 27:07
Thank you again, and I hope that you Have a wonderful day.
Susan Tatum 27:11
Thank you. You too.
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