In this episode of Stop the Noise, Susan sits down with John Barrett, founder of PhysisPD Consulting. Transitioning to independent consulting after post-COVID corporate burnout, John shares how mindfulness—a powerful, positive tool for consultants—healed his professional and personal life, offering actionable tips for bringing mindful awareness and focus into daily practice.
Notes from the Show
Recognizing the Need for Mindfulness: Corporate environments usually come with intense workloads, high expectations and a constant pressure to always be productive, all of which eventually lead to burnout. These can signal a need for mindfulness. Staying aware of stress triggers and prioritizing well-being enables consultants to counteract stress, maintain health, and improve focus and mental clarity.
Embrace a Transition Detox: Making the switch? Take a pause from corporate life before diving into consulting. A “transition detox” engaged with mindfulness books and practices and reflection on past experiences not only helps clarify goals but also creates a space to recharge mentally before taking on a new chapter.
Practical Mindfulness in Daily Consulting: Daily practices—like using a Calm app, setting personal mantras, and expressing gratitude—foster focus and presence without requiring meditation. Engage family or trusted friends in these practices to strengthen mindfulness and encourage accountability.
Mindful Networking for Genuine Connections: Networking in consulting is essential, so approach it with authentic and genuine interest. Mindful networking is about building and nurturing relationships beyond business transactions. Regular, personal connections foster meaningful relationships, enhancing professional support that extends beyond business needs.
Using Mindfulness to Combat Stress: Mindfulness can be a powerful tool in defining goals and understanding personal values. By developing mindfulness and self-awareness, consultants and founders can prioritize meaningful work that aligns their consulting practices with a sustainable, stress-free lifestyle and overall increase job satisfaction.
What’s Inside:
What is mindfulness, and why is it important for consultants?
Practical tips for mindfulness without meditation?
How can mindfulness impact networking?
Combat stress in the consulting world with mindful habits.
Mentioned in this Episode:
Transcribed by AI Susan Tatum 0:37
Hi everyone. Welcome back to stop the noise. Today i'm talking with John Barrett, who's the founder of PhysisPD consulting. Welcome John.
John Barrett 0:46
Hello. How are you today?
Susan Tatum 0:47
I'm great. I am great. And John, you're a product development executive, career product development executive, with your experiences in med tech and life sciences, right?
John Barrett 1:00
Yeah. I've had about basically over the last 25 years, I've been focused in med tech and medical devices. For that, I did a work in the commercial world for children's products, and then I had a career in Department of Defense, and in each of those cases, it was moving new products from ideation through development into manufacturing and commercializing. And I've just moved my career along as a career product developer and a project manager, integrator, executive overseeing all the processes and building organizations to do that.
Susan Tatum 1:30
And then you joined the world of independent consulting about what about a year ago, nine months ago, something,
John Barrett 1:36
yeah, about a year ago.
Susan Tatum 1:37
And John is here today. I invited him here today to talk about mindfulness, because John, when you and I met, we've had a few calls we met the first time, that was something that you brought up, that you had been spending quite a bit of time focused on, and I think it's something that's so important, because it is. There's just a lot stress that goes on in the world, and then when we make these, these transitions from the corporate world to the independent consulting world, there's stress involved in that. Tell us, if you would, you know, just, just take a few minutes here and talk about what was happening in in corporate and how you got into mindfulness.
John Barrett 2:18
Yeah, it was an interesting journey. And it actually, I'll take it back to the COVID era, and just how the world of product development and manufacturing had to evolve and did change. And the workforce changed, and everything the way that we did went about doing product development and manufacturing was different, and every aspect of what we were doing had to change. And in the past, used to be normal was no longer normal, and it just kind of kept snowballing. And you know, everyone said, Oh, we're over COVID. But the reality is, the supply chain wasn't over COVID. The workforce wasn't over COVID. And many of the plans and many of the projects and strategic direction that we had laid out to get ourselves through COVID just wasn't working, and things were taking longer, and it just added into the organizational stress of trying to do product development, trying to be successful in manufacturing, and trying to meet the expectations of the company, of financial success. And as you talk across the industry, as I talk to other leaders and similar we're all going through the same thing. Nothing was easy anymore. Product Development is far enough as it is, but the world was making everything more difficult, and as we got into more struggles, it just compounded my engagement as a leader and trying to keep the the organization moving forward. And I was in a situation where I had built out the product development and project for management organization and other functions. So, you know, you always talk about not getting personally connected to the team, but I've built the team, and throughout my career, I usually last seven, eight years in a role, and then figure out it's time to move on. Well, that eight year period hit right in the middle of COVID, and I probably should have said to myself, John, it's time to get out. But I was connected, and I was connected to the leaders that I had developed, and I had put myself in that situation, and I didn't want to let them down, and I really worked with them to try to pull us through. And the reality was, things had changed too much, and I had come to the conclusion, in my mind, that this was gonna be really, really difficult to exit in a positive manner. There's a lot of accountability to finally be driven through the organization. And finally, the situation just it didn't work anymore. And my arrangement with the company ended. And it was one of those where it was a tough pill to swallow, but it was also the relief. And, you know, I had got caught up in the muck. I had gotten myself dug deep into the hole. And I think the biggest thing, and you and I talked about this was just the impact it was having on me, personally, on my family and things of that sort. And I told you the story about the summer before I was I had moved on, and I'm on vacation. We're in the middle of a mess at work, and I'm in the swimming pool at a hotel with my son, who's 12 at the time, and he finally looked at me, and he said, Are we on vacation or not? Are you gonna why are you here? And that was really like an early awakening. Said, aha, something's wrong here. And then the family started building on that, like, where are you? You're not here. You know, I wasn't present. And that's kind of where the realization of what was going on started to hit me, and I realized something's got to happen. And the termination, the exiting from from the company, was a good thing, because it actually gave me a chance to look at myself and say that was enough.
Susan Tatum 5:31
So you, yeah, you were getting it from both sides. Am I right? You're getting it was terribly stressful time and and the workforce, and then you, you had the family that were felt like they were being ignored, but can't have been good for your health.
John Barrett 5:46
No, that wasn't going so well either. Uh, you know, I'm an avid walker, and thank God I was walking, because the blood pressure had gotten way out of control. The pre diabetes had gotten very difficult to manage. The just the general stress level was not good, and I physically could see it, because I I wear my Fitbit, and I can track what's going on, and I have a little heart monitoring. When your numbers get way too high, has to get alarming. And I was thinking that. And there were days where, like, No, I'm lucky I got out of there alive. And it's just the stress you put on yourself to succeed as an executive, right? You've built something. You have a vision, you have an organization that's behind you trying to push for that. And then when things are not going the way you expect, and you can't control everything, you know, it just got into that kind of a situation. And that's not something that I would trap myself into throughout my career. I've had a lot of successes of throughout my career of pulling things through this was just a very unique, challenging situation, and recognizing how the world had changed, how the workforce has changed, and just how difficult it came to just, you know, end of the day, it didn't work.
Susan Tatum 6:53
So what made you turn to my Well, let me ask you, first of all, how do you define mindfulness, or what is it? What does it mean to you?
John Barrett 7:02
What was interesting? So I'm an engineer by training. I've got two engineering degrees. I've got an MBA, but I'm very analytical. So it's one of those, you somebody says mindfulness and meditation. 20 years ago, I'd go, Ah, right, you know, I'm an engineer. It's got to be black or white. But over time, you know, as I age, I've softened and I'm more open minded into all these kind of conversations. And you know, just the words, are you being present? Was what triggered it enough for me to realize, no, I'm not present. You know, my mind is off in different places. I'm angst of the past, I'm ruminating about the future, and I'm not leaving in the moment. And you know, just realizing that, and talking with my wife, it's like John, that's what mindfulness is about, is trying to get control of your mind, to understand and be aware of how you're feeling, how you're thinking, and being able to focus. And then I started on my own journey. So what I, you know, I took two and a half months after, you know, the agreement ended, and I just started reading, and I started detoxing, and I had several books. And one of the first books I I read was, um, Be Where Your Feet Are, by Scott O'Neil. He was the former CEO of the Philadelphia 76ers and I'm reading that book, and it's like, this is me to a T, you know, and he talked about just how difficult it was being present in the moment, the distractions. He had young children as well, about the ages of my kid, my child, I have six kids. I have a 13 year old, and the rest are all around and just how difficult it was to stay connected and be present. And, you know, reading that book was like, That's my problem, and my mind is just running away from me, and it's not being who I am. It's not letting me be what I want to do. And then from there, I just started doing some more readings. It wasn't one of those. I dove into meditation and dove into this. No, I just had several colleagues recommend some books to me when I started talking with people about it, there's a series of books by Michael Singer. They came out a while ago. And if he wrote the Untethered Soul, he wrote living untethered, you know, and you can take what you want from those books. But the biggest thing was it just showed me again how your mind works and why it's so important that to be in the present, and what you can do about it, and it's just a natural tendency almost not to be present, is the way that we are negatively trained to think in the way our minds work, and it's so difficult to control that unless you're aware of it. And that's what I focused on, was being aware. And I kept doing some readings and research about just how to be aware, and that's what mindfulness is. Is being aware? Is being focused? What are you focused on? You're focused on the environment around you, where you are today, right and right now, this exact moment, right now. I am focused on talking with you about this topic. I'm aware that I'm talking to you about this topic. My mind is not winding off and having other thoughts about, oh my God, how do I look, or how do I sound, and all this stuff and worrying about this and worrying about that, right no, I'm not worried about the future. What are people going to think about this, and what kind of comments am I going to get for doing this? No, I'm not thinking about that. I'm focused right now on being aware, and it's just training your mind to be of that ilk. And the books go all over the place, and the authors obviously have the right content for but they're good in the fact that if you can ascertain the key points about the importance of being aware and using it to be present, and then it really helps you find out who you are. And that's what I did for, you know, two and a half three months. And since I wasn't working, I wasn't consulting, I wasn't trying to set up the business or anything else. I was able to focus on that. It was a detox period, and it gave me clarity that I had never had before. And I'm sitting there as an engineer. Why is this working? This is actually the truth. I see it happening. I see it working for me, and I just kept building upon it, and I saw the positives, that I was feeling good, and everything else, enough that come new year and thereafter, I decided, well, it's time to go back. Let me start my consulting. Let me see where this goes. You know, I'm not done to retire. I'm I've got a lot to offer, but it did help me come to a point of clarity of what I wanted to do next, you know? And what that was, is the experiences I've had throughout my career. There's not much I haven't seen. There has not much I haven't experienced, especially over the last 10 years. And how can I bring this knowledge, this wisdom now to companies that are struggling to grow, not struggling to downsize, not struggling to do other things. But how do they want to grow? How can I help companies grow? Hence the name of my consulting firm, PhysisPD, in Greek is a terminology for growth, so it's a growth of product development. And what I started doing was networking with the early stage community. I got myself on the local board here for an innovation network, and I just started the networking. And I say, All right, let me be aware of what I want to do. This is what I want to do. I want to contribute in a positive manner. I don't want to go back into a situation where, you know, the challenges I didn't feel could be overcome, you know, and things of that sort. So that presence of knowing and that awareness that everything I was looking at had to be something that was a positive contribution to help others move their businesses forward, really set a strong foundation for me, out as a guiding light to go forward. And then I just started networking. And it was amazing how the flow of people willing to talk to me, I had reached out, the contacts that I hadn't talked to in almost 25 years, everyone was willing to talk. Everyone was willing to at least have a 30 minute conversation. And the insights, the wisdom, the referrals, you know, it led to some, you know, a couple great opportunities of one of which I'm still working on, and I'm enjoying thorough on how I'm helping that business grow. And I'm also engaged with, you know, the early stage community, and working with a children's hospital here in Philadelphia, and working with Penn Medicine with some of their ideation, innovation type network. And it's not I just love going down. People want to hear my insights about, you know, the challenges I've faced, and how could they not make the same mistakes? That's how I look at it. And so where the mindfulness comes in is the challenge it is. You got to keep doing it, and when you put yourself back into the workforce, it's easy to get distracted, and that was my biggest concern was, how can I keep this mindfulness practice in my life? How can I make this part of who I am moving forward so I can stay focused? And that's when I started using some of the little tools and the techniques of little things, like I have a daily calm app that I'll use a couple days a week when I'm feeling I need to get centered just to listen to what they're thinking and focus for a couple minutes. In the morning, I created my own little mantra, key terminology that is very specific to how I think, staying focused, staying aware, staying confident, being being grateful. You know, just going through that when, when I find that I do fall into a trap of ruminating or something, I'll snap into my little mantra. Just say it in my head. You know, gratitude is a huge element that I've added to my life. To just consciously in your head do that. But the other piece too, that was really important, Susan, is I engaged my family, my wife has been tremendous in helping me stay present, not that she meditates or any of those things. She just has a great awareness about when I am not being aware, and when I'm not being present, and before, where I would ignore it, now I'm super conscientious of it, and which will look at me like, you're not here, and it catches me back. The kids know, Dad, you're not here, catches me right back. And that has been a key part of helping me as I integrate back into the workforce, because now I can go be a consultant, you're sitting at home, or you're there, it's a very different experience than when you're working in a corporate office with different people, right? And you can get absorbed very quickly. And what I have found, though, is I'm absorbed in a good way now and then I'm done, and then I can turn it off, and I can plug back and being present. And I'm getting better and better at turning the switch on and off, and that's why I continue using it. Maybe I don't define mindfulness the way that it's classically defined or used by others, but it's a means by which, through my own research, that I found some techniques and readings that keep me focused on what's important to me, and that's being present.
Susan Tatum 15:16
Well, you know? So I looked it up, I looked up the word mindfulness, just to see how it was defined, and the one that came back with it was it's a practice, a practice that involves being aware of the present moment without judgment.
John Barrett 15:28
just being calm.
Susan Tatum 15:29
Yeah, I mean, that's what you were saying. I John, let me ask you this, because you did mention meditation in that your wife doesn't meditate, but you don't meditate either, do you?
John Barrett 15:37
No, no, really, it's just one of those. I find other ways to focus. I'm as an engineer in my career, I've been a problem solver. I've never had the long attention span, just not who I am. And to sit there think that I could sit there and focus on one thing for a long period of time or try to it's just not in my DNA, okay? I recognize that I did try to meditate, and I did. They tell you, there's no such thing as failing meditating. It's the trying that counts, because no one's a perfect meditator. I found it frustrating. What I did find better was other things in the mindfulness world that allowed me to do things on the shorter basis that were more immediate and in my mind. That was what was helping me more be present today than trying to find a 30 minute block to go do something I just didn't value that time to take away 30 minutes from my family or something to go do that, versus having something in my pocket that I could pull out and say, no, no, I got 10 minutes here. I can think about this or say seven keywords over and over three times, and I'm back focused. To me, that was the value of how I look at it.
Susan Tatum 16:37
Can you share with us some of the things that you I mean, you don't have to get too specific. Is it something that you do mentally, that you're saying to yourself, you did mention you have a mantra? Is it something you do physically, that you're just like, yanking yourself back into the present?
John Barrett 16:52
No, it's one of those when, when I get to a point where I realize, oh, wait, wait a second, I'm, you're you're drifting. You know, I have a little reminder bracelets that I have that you sell silly, maybe for a six year old man, but no, they're very effective in knowing that just a little conscious reminder there I look down and that reminds me exactly of being present every day, every situation, when I need it, if I actually start ruminating or I don't like where my mind is going, you know, emotional thinking thoughts, or, you know how it's singing. I I can click off and say, you know, my 7k words and repeat them two or three times, and that turns off my head. I have another one that I use quite often in the middle of the night, because I, as we all probably do, when you wake up in the middle of night, that's when your mind races the most, I've found over the years, and I just say no, no mind, no mind, and just repeat that a couple times, and I've got myself no mind, and it distracts me from where I was going and puts me back in a present place. And it takes time. It's not easy to do right away. It's taken me several months, by being committed in my mind to make this happen. That's why I keep doing it. In the readings I had and I read it, they said it takes time to retrain your brain to do these things, and it did. But if you do stay focused, it does work.
Susan Tatum 18:08
These books that you were talking about, they're they're giving you a sort of a path to follow, or
John Barrett 18:13
it's more of an understanding as to why you are where you are and why your mind is the way it is. You know. And it comes. They come at it from different angles, but we read it from several different angles. It all comes down to the same thing, that your your mind's thoughts are typically negative. Your brain wants to go to a negative place. And when you recognize that, that's what it's doing, and you can correlate that to exactly what you've done and how you've operated and how you save, you say, oh my, that's who I am. And then they talk about the importance of how you can work towards, you know, being present, being aware, the importance of being aware, how you look at things objectively, you know, the mindfulness definition you gave, you know, look at things as an object, you know, don't personalize it that way. That gets gray to me, but just again. But it gave me that foundation that it's like, I know I'm aware. And yeah, I'll go for walks. And sometimes I'll just same thing that I'll just go. And there was one book I read, it goes, When was the last time you went for a walk and actually saw where you walk?
Susan Tatum 19:12
Good Question,
John Barrett 19:13
you know? And I was like, I've walked 10,000 steps. I had a period couple years ago. I walked 10,000 steps for 222, days in a row. And I bet you maybe 200 to 220 of those, or 219, of those days, I had no idea, I was just walking. Yeah, right. But now, when I walk, I notice things. I notice the herd of deer that's five feet away from me, you know, things like that. I would have walked right by them. You know, in the past, you know, just out here where I live, the deer everywhere and but just little things. And, you know, the other night we had the Aurora Borealis popped up out of nowhere out here. Hasn't happened in 20 years. Boy, was I glued to that with my son for over half an hour. We got great pictures looking at that like we may not see that again for another 20 years. I may never see it again, ever. Yeah, no, but just being aware of that and having him share that moment with him, instead of me ruminating about what's going to happen tomorrow and work right?
Susan Tatum 20:03
So I am assuming, because I it, for me, it would be like you have to give yourself permission to be able to not be thinking about what you should be doing, or worrying about something like that, or worrying about what you did and what everybody thought about it, and let yourself just appreciate what's happening around you?
John Barrett 20:21
Yeah, that's very simply how I look at it. Now I use the term let things flow to me, you know, I don't know where it's going to happen tomorrow. I still do worry about it. My wife reminds me that all the time, you're still a warrior, but it's not to the same degree. And I'm much more open and accepting things flowing to me and realizing they're flowing to me. And if something doesn't work out, there's a reason why it didn't work out, you know, and I've noticed that as well. Now I look back so that one didn't work, and you think about it really wasn't meant to be, and that's not who I wanted to be, me going forward, and I'm okay with that.
Susan Tatum 20:53
So you mentioned, John,
John Barrett 20:54
you bring all these things to consulting. So as you're looking at opportunities, you know, it's, it's you going out there and finding what you want to do as a consultant, you know, and how you want to contribute. What I found was, you know, I like to manage things. I I'm really good at taking on special projects, you know, and positioning myself that way. I'm here to help. That's what I want to do. When you develop that kind of a messaging, and you start talking to people, they get the sincerity of what you're talking about, because it is who you are. But if I were to go out there and say, I'm a quality specialist, and try to talk to and get it doesn't come across you kind of it's interesting. You've got to stay true to who you are and be open that way. And then the opportunities seem to flow.
Susan Tatum 21:31
You mentioned that you're heavily into networking, and you were contacting people that you hadn't talked to in 25 years, and they were willing to talk with you. What kind of approach were you using to get them to be willing to talk to you?
John Barrett 21:47
It was one of those. I've had an opportunity. My career has changed. I'm exploring all kinds of new opportunities for what I'd like to do. We haven't talked a long time. Would you be willing to catch up with me and just, you know, share with me what you're up to, and talk about what I'm thinking about. And I would say 98% of the people I reached out to, or Absolutely I had reached out to, one individual who I hadn't talked to in over 30 years, and we had the greatest conversation for 45 minutes, you know, and he was classical because he, he was a program manager that worked with me in my younger days, and at age 60, he went back to college and became a professional nurse. And he there's a book written by him about him being, you know, the the oldest graduate, or something. And now in his 80s, he's still practicing as a nurse. You know, it's just little inspirational things. It's amazing how people, when you're not talking from business, you know, it's not business to business, but when you look at it from that kind of a networking and you can relate back the conversations you get into, what you share and people, you know, hey, you might want to talk to someone so, you know, I hadn't talked to so and so in a long time, and that's kind of what I did, and I still do. I'm still working the network. I like talking to people you know, you and I talk. There's others you know on a regular basis, and it's just no I find that gratifying to be able to talk to colleagues of the past in a non business environment and share our thoughts and what's our families have moved forward. Our careers have moved forward. People are willing to talk.
Susan Tatum 23:17
Were you a natural networker in the corporate world before you discovered mindfulness
John Barrett 23:24
as an engineer, and I've taken all these profile tests. So it's interesting, I am truly an introvert. I do not get energized by public gatherings of people and things of that sort. But as an organizational leader, I'm an extrovert. Somehow, over the years, over the career, I knew in order to succeed, I had to effectively communicate. I had to be I wanted to be a leader. I had to put myself out there and get out of my comfort zone. So it's, it's an interesting dichotomy. Is when I'm home and with my family, I'm an introvert. When I'm in the professional world, I have no problem talking to anybody, most about anything than any topic and enjoy conversation. So it's just something that evolved throughout my career. And you know, I've been fortunate for that.
Susan Tatum 24:08
So reaching out to these folks that you hadn't talked to in a long time was it was an easy thing for you to do.
John Barrett 24:12
When I started getting success. It built upon success of that, yeah, if the first five people came back and said, No, Barrett, we don't want to you, then I would have been like, Ah, this is no way. But no, it worked. I built one positive after another conversation. And you know, just how everyone was really thankful that I reached out. Would say, Well, I wish other people would do that, you know, because I lost you. Everybody gets so busy, but you know, once or twice a week to connect with somebody and have a different conversation, and we would get into some topics that were beneficial to everybody, you know, not just me looking for help, and I didn't position it that way. Hey, can you help me find a job? No, that's not what I was doing about. I was reaching out to reconnect with you as a person.
Susan Tatum 24:53
That's the important thing, I think. So, what can you give? Do you have any any advice or tips? For any of the listeners that might be going through something similar to what you went through with the stress and all that stuff,
John Barrett 25:08
I think it really does come down to it is building your own awareness of what's going on around you. And as simple as it sounds, very few people have it. And reading those books and observing the world, you can see very few people are aware, in the sense of a mindfulness oriented awareness of truly what's going on right in front of them and why they're lost in the past or we're worried about the future. I mean, if you can develop that kind of an awareness and look at things objectively, it changes everything. It changes the stress of the business. It changes how you interact with people. It just it puts a completely different slant on it, and it's worth taking the time to develop your own awareness so that you can be present, that you can figure out who you want to be and how you want to contribute to the world. And that's the most important thing that I've had on and since I found that it's worked, I stick to it, you know. And then the second piece is, engage your family, they know you best. Oh, six of my kids will tell you, Dad, we lost you for a while. You know, my wife's like, I wasn't sure we were gonna stay married. You know, this is how things had gotten and was like now it's refreshing to hear them saying, and hey, you're doing great. Hey, you're present. Or, Wow, we went away for a weekend. You were here all weekend. That's one thing. Yeah, those are the two key pieces. Build an awareness, your own awareness, and we help you.
Susan Tatum 26:25
John, thank you so much for sharing all of this. And I think, I think one of the things that struck me is that knowing that there's a scientific reason that we're that our minds are going off on us all the time, I think is helpful for anyone that's a little bit leery of something that seems a bit mysterious or magic, or use term, woo, woo, ish. So I yeah, I think, I think that's important, and I appreciate you sharing your story, and if any of the listeners want to just follow up with you and ask you any questions, is, is that okay?
John Barrett 26:59
Absolutely, absolutely. You know it's interesting is I've had, when I started down this journey, I talked with some colleagues, and they're like, you don't want to tell people you're doing that. And I'm like, What do you mean? And now they think you're crazy. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what this is about. This is a very positive technique that executives should have in their arsenal to make them better in their career, they move forward. You know, it's tough being an executive and to have a tool like this that you can count on. And when I engage some more people that were mindful executives, they confirmed to me what a differentiator it was in their own careers and their own success by having this as a tool for them to follow and use when they needed it the most.
Susan Tatum 27:38
Yeah, I know sales, that's good for help. And I'm thinking of Steve Benioff I think the guy from Salesforce, he was assumed still as a big meditator, way back when that just wasn't done by executives. So I think it's great to be more open to that. We have to be.
John Barrett 27:56
Thanks forletting me share these insights, and hopefully the listeners can take them, but put them to good use and help them on their own journey forward.
Susan Tatum 28:04
Cool. What's a good way for them to get in touch with you John.
John Barrett 28:07
LinkedIn, that's the easiest way. I'm John A Barrett at LinkedIn, and the great way I'm on there every other day or so and reach out to me through LinkedIn
Susan Tatum 28:18
we'll put some of these books in the show notes for anybody that wants to give them a look and thank you, thank you again for being here. I appreciate it.
John Barrett 28:25
Thank you. Have a good day.
Susan Tatum 28:27
You too, John,
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